GC: Is your diversity and inclusion approach primarily driven by internal factors or external pressures?
Continue reading “Interview: Sandie Okoro, general counsel, HSBC Global Asset Management”
Vodafone as a whole has a D&I strategy, which covers the three Cs: colleagues, customers and communities. ‘Colleagues’ is what we do for employees. We work hard to make sure there’s a talent and gender balance in every team, we look at career life stages, and then we look at making sure there’s an inclusive culture.
Continue reading “Interview: Kerry Phillip, legal director, Vodafone Group Enterprise”
Prash Naik (PN): The 360° Diversity Charter was launched in January 2015, and it’s part of a five-year plan that puts diversity at the heart of all the decisions that we make within the Channel, both on- and off-screen. Channel 4 is a publisher-broadcaster, so we don’t have in-house production; we work with over three hundred independent production companies. It was felt to be important that as well as imposing aspirational targets on our third-party suppliers, we should impose an equally challenging set of targets internally.
GC: Is your diversity and inclusion strategy primarily driven from internal factors or external pressures?
Funke Abimbola (FA): The focus of my diversity work has been within the legal profession, not Roche as a whole, because Roche does it right, especially for gender, ethnicity and social mobility. For example, with regards to gender, we have more female leaders than male leaders and more female leaders in the pipeline for succession. We also have a healthy representation of colleagues who are the first in their families to go to university and to get PhDs, and we are strong on ethnicity – we have over 50 nationalities represented amongst our 1,800 staff based at the site in the UK alone.
When I arrived at Roche, I thought that there was something very wrong in the legal profession. I had worked in four law firms where I was the only black lawyer. Diversity of social background in law firms tended to depend on practice area – for example, legal aid work is more diverse both in terms of race and social background, but in commercial practice, there is little diversity. For example, there was only one Asian partner at one of the four firms where I worked previously.
GC: Do you think things have changed at all in the firms since you left?
FA: It depends on the firm, and really it only takes effect where firms have actively set up programmes because it doesn’t just happen over time without specific initiatives. The firms that have changed are committed to addressing gender targets, social mobility, multicultural issues, LGBT, and will also have some kind of employee network to deal with inclusion aspects. It is one thing to get diverse colleagues in the door but quite another thing to make the mix work.
GC: Have you come across ‘box-ticking’, and how have you overcome this approach?
FA: Yes, and I am pushing for the business case for diversity, trying to use client power to force change. I am encouraging as many of my senior in-house contacts as I can to sign up to the Law Society Procurement Protocol, which is a commitment to having diversity as a core part of the procurement process for external law firms. We recently did an RFP for our external legal panel and the D&I element had significant weighting, resulting in firms that are technically strong not even making it onto the shortlist. I feel very strongly about this and all 40 of the law firms involved in the process were fed back that message.
Some firms will do this anyway because of their strong CSR policies, but a significant proportion won’t unless it hits them in the pocket. On one level, we should set aside the business case and focus on the fact that this is the right thing to do, bringing a broader mix of talent. Clients are more diverse anyway, and firms could be missing out on the top talent. There are candidates who have been turned down who are clearly talented, but they are not given entry to the more elite firms.
GC: What are the strategic benefits of diversity?
FA: Diversity of thought is the endgame. If you have more diverse thinkers, then you will be problem solving in a very different way, across all disciplines. We are a very innovative company at Roche and the challenge is to remain innovative, because this is a crucial part of drug discovery – we need innovation at every stage and innovation only happens if people look at a problem in a different way.
GC: Does this extend to the legal team?
FA: My team is very diverse, and we all qualified in different ways. I don’t look at which university a candidate went to or what class of degree a candidate got, because that is insignificant. I look for the potential and raw talent, their experience, what they can bring to the team. The recruitment process here is an open one. We have a diverse team: some are parents, and some are from different parts of the world. All qualified in different ways. You must look at the talent you will get in the door, but many law firms simply don’t do that; they look at the university, the results. I get 150+ applications per vacancy but I put time in to get the best talent irrespective of race, etc.
GC: Does this make recruitment a lengthier process?
FA: At the front end, you have to invest the time, but having done that, if you know what you are looking for, I can spot talent on a CV and find the right attributes in a covering letter. It is about drawing the right things out of a CV. I have to block out time to do this, but that is something we do here. My team is not unusual in doing this within Roche – it is a core part of culture and our values. Otherwise you are just doing word searches, looking for the ‘right’ universities.
GC: What specific role or impact can your team have on diversity initiatives?
FA: We are representative, high performing, and very visible. This goes a long way because people see our thinking as very fresh and we challenge each other to think differently. But, at Roche we are not the exception, because my team is representative of the whole company culture. We celebrate that, and people and their thinking and their successes – they are all core parts of what we stand for.
GC: Can diversity of the company have an impact on the perception of the company?
FA: Absolutely. In fact, it is a key recruitment tool. All companies who are serious about getting the right talent in will have done research on millennials, and the more diverse we are, the more likely we are to attract high quality millennials. We have a mixture of students going through my summer internship scheme every year, four or five law students getting work experience, and they all said (even the young men) that they want to work in a company like this because of the diversity. When I speak to school children (roughly 2,000 this year) I see that they are very different from other generations: more clued up, they can research, they know what is what, because there is more information out there. Diversity is a core part and any company that doesn’t engage will be left behind.
GC: Do you have tangible examples of where your networks, initiatives and speaking on the topic have had an impact?
FA: A number of firms that have signed up to the PRIME commitment have done so because of my example, without a doubt. There have been a number of top 20 firms who have set targets because of what I have said to them, whether I have spoken at their firm or they have heard me somewhere else and gone back to their firm and started something. I am regularly invited by the senior leadership of firms to convince their partners of the importance of all this. This is not just speaking to potential panel firms and we are very transparent about that – if you only do this because of possible panel benefits, then it’s not going to help you. Only do this if you really want to do it. The best firm for taking up these changes isn’t even on our panel. It is not about future work, but the bigger issue around progression and change within the sector.
GC: Have you experienced any challenges when starting initiatives?
FA: It is always useful if firms have the data. If they don’t, it can be a pointless exercise, because they won’t know what issue they are trying to solve. You need data for all levels of qualification, starting with trainees. This data is very important – it has to be the starting point across all strands, through gender, race, disability. The Law Society has a template you can use to gather the data, and then we can talk. So I can say, ‘You have an inclusion problem, not a diversity problem’. The big issue at entry level is the narrow pool of talent being considered.
So the starting point is data. Get a transparent attitude to that, broaden access at entry level, have gender and other diversity targets, work hard to retain your talent using set targets (not quotas), provide mentoring and sponsorship, set up employee networks covering several diversity strands such as multicultural, LGBT and gender balance.
Firstly, diversity is about the war for talent. It is extremely competitive to get the best people: to attract them, retain them, to encourage the best out of them and to help career progression.
Continue reading “Interview: Patrick Rowe, deputy GC, Accenture”
GC: Are there any diversity and inclusion initiatives specific to the legal team at Shell in the UK and globally?
Alan Buchanan (AB): We have a corporate top-down philosophy which starts with our CEO through our organisational construct. A lot is driven centrally, and the translation and application occurs in the businesses and functions. In terms of energy and commitment to D&I, we do a very strong job. The tone from the top, because of people like Donny Ching (the global legal director), and the whole leadership team, through their commitment, helps make sure we have diverse panels, diverse candidates on shortlists, support for employee networks and for external and internal events.
Michael Coates (MC): It���s up to us as legal managers to advance the agenda. In legal, we do the best in this area over the whole Shell organisation – nearly 40% of our management-level employees are female. We are leading across the business functions. We look to be a group to emulate.
GC: Why is the legal department leading in this area?
MC: We have great staff, male and female, and a talent pipeline over the years, represented at every level. We really work on attraction and retention because there’s no point attracting great people only to lose them because you can’t offer a good balance of life and work. We are represented in over 70 countries, which requires a diverse workforce. In legal, you need to be qualified in the jurisdiction you are working on, so that further drives diversity. The top lawyer in Shell is Malaysian and this shows that the company is walking the talk.
GC: I heard anecdotally that increasing gender diversity can improve the overall safety rates within construction and mining companies – do you have any examples of similar things?
AB: On the Pearl GTL (gas-to-liquids) project, where a large proportion of the workforce were local, they were told to speak out if anything was deemed unsafe. You only create that culture if you respect the views and values of your team. You need to create an environment where employees feel comfortable, or you won’t improve your safety or business performance. People have to connect with their environment, and we make sure we hire a localised footprint. Legal has an advantage in that we directly hire lawyers out of law firms, not graduates, because they have a different proposition to offer and it’s about targeting a richer supply.
GC: Is there a business case for D&I? From a Shell legal point of view, what are the strategic benefits?
MC: Recruitment is one of them. In regards to our future talent base, we have to get up to speed with what they are after. You don’t want everyone from the same background because then you don’t get the breadth of thought and decision making. I haven’t heard an argument against diversity; it’s almost accepted wisdom.
AB: Shell is a collaborative organisation across many geographies and we’ve built an environment where you feel you can share ideas and translate that in the local environment. What is our competitive advantage? The quality of our people, their ideas and contributions. It’s about who we can attract, from which varied backgrounds, and how we can retain them.
MC: The legal issues Shell is up against are cutting edge. They cut across different legal systems and jurisdictions, so we need people to understand how these systems operate over multiple countries. Having diversity is very important. It is a clear business driver. Overall, our number of employees as a group is relatively small compared with our asset base. We need to make sure the people we attract are right over the countries in which we operate.
GC: How important is it to have role models within the company to promote diversity?
MC: You need your leaders to stand up and say ‘I believe in this’. I am about to deliver a diversity pledge, and that process is about getting someone leading to say that it is important.
AB: We all look to role models and look to relating to the individual. If you don’t feel your authentic self can be at work, you won’t stay. But you need the tone from the top, role models, and networks to create the right environment, to share ideas and best practice, to enable you to talk about your own experiences.
MC: We had a flexible working policy before the law came in. People work flexibly in legal, some work at home, which reduces commuting time. I am all about delivery, and we know very quickly if they aren’t delivering – we get complaints from clients. We trust them to deliver. It’s not about facetime in the office. We have very good retention rates, so people are voting with their feet.
AB: We are trying to create a brand, a reputation; lots of our people come to us by word of mouth.
GC: What role does the legal team have in promoting diversity and what could it do better?
MC: I am on the board at Shell UK, as a director as well as a lawyer, and the legal team is asked by HR to stand up as leaders, not just as lawyers. On the Country Coordination team, as functional business leaders, we all have to stand up and say ‘here is what we believe as leaders’, not just reverting to our job role. There is that call upon us when we reach a management position, speaking as a leader of a community. I have the responsibility to promote what legal has been doing back into the business, and there is an interest in what we have done. The picture is complex; engineering fields have a lower representation of females and we are trying to get more females into STEM [science, technology, engineering and maths] subjects during their education. We try to be realistic, knowing it takes time, but building the ladder.
AB: Over a ten-year period, targets are one method, but it’s not about quotas; it’s more about making sure we create an environment where people perform to the best of their ability. Because we fill the pipeline, we have the talent and the choice to always select the strongest performer, irrespective of gender, etc.
MC: We want to bring everyone on the journey. We don’t want to alienate anyone because of D&I. It is still a meritocracy, or you lose people.
AB: The tone from the top, the culture, our policies – all these can change behaviour and mindsets. We have D&I ‘lunch and learns’ which help in building awareness of being respectful of difference, understanding of issues, allowing everyone to flourish. We have lots of different tactics and avenues.
MC: We will have a woman’s network lunch where I will talk about my career background. My mother wanted to be a doctor and certainly had the required grades, but scholarships weren’t offered to women at that time. Now I have a daughter – I look to that, and think it should never be an issue again. I will hear their experiences at the lunch as well. It’s important to get feedback, and always ask ‘what could we be doing better?’ Shell has a women’s network, a cross-function network. We also have an LGBT group and other different diverse groups.
GC: What are some common challenges for D&I initiatives?
AB: You need to create the environment that allows people to establish their own networks, so they feel comfortable to speak up. It’s about reframing and changing belief systems and behaviours, although you have to be careful: targets are good for measuring, but shouldn’t drive decisions and skew other groups so that they feel misrepresented. Don’t be slavish to KPIs; develop the environment instead.
MC: Most companies know they have to do something on this; they have to act and implement this at all levels rather than just saying the right thing. Even the most junior managers should be encouraged, and it could be a performance issue for them to make sure it happens and to ensure that they pick up inappropriate practices. None of this is an immediate fix; it’s a series of steps. Focusing only on management positions isn’t the whole picture. You need to make sure people are comfortable and have bought in at every level.
GC: What’s next for Shell on the D&I front?
AB: We will continue our progression, work on our networks, tools, processes and policies and flexible working. We’ll start to offer choices such as virtual homeworking. Employing new staff is always a challenge. What is the best environment for new people so they feel a part of things? Also, we will look at different generational needs.
MC: Shell is organic, it changes, so you have to keep abreast and look externally. We should be focused not just on our own data, but on what other companies are doing. We are well staffed and well resourced, so we can create teams to help us as managers. We have invested time and money into this.
AB: We are externally recognised as being good in this area. The Times named us one of the top 50 employers for women. To be an employer of choice for women is a great achievement.
The future of work is something we have to wrestle with. I have children, and they might have jobs that haven’t even been invented yet. We should be abreast of technology, how people are deployed. How work gets done in the future might be very different.
MC: Everything will change with disruptive technologies so we have to be flexible and adaptive.
Our strategy is really driven by both internal and external pressures. The big focus is obviously on the fact that we want to retain the best people out there. I think it is paying off as we are ranked the most sought-after FMCG [fast-moving consumer goods] employer in the world and the third most sought-after employer across all sectors for the second year running, according to a survey by LinkedIn. I think our focus on inclusivity is actually key in retaining hires.
Continue reading “Interview: Ritva Sotamaa, chief legal officer, Unilever”
By diversity I mean all characteristics of identity including age, sex, race, gender and ability. It is strategically beneficial to have a diverse workforce, because people have different life stories and experience, and this broadens the perspective of the entity for which they work. This is especially important where we interface in a global market both within and outside of the UK. The benefit of diversity can become evident when an organisation learns from these experiences – what people like and don’t like, the differences and similarities between people – and allow them to influence how its members work with each other and with persons outside.
Another aspect of diversity is that clients and stakeholders often like interacting with people who have similar life experiences – people with whom they can identify. This often lubricates the business discussions; it is easier for people to be at ease where there is that initial recognition of familiarity.
Role models play a vital part of driving diversity and inclusion forward. Unlike mentoring, which is traditionally one-on-one, because role models have somewhat of a platform, whether that be a stage or the media, their stories have a greater reach and impact on a wider range of people. Organisations like the Prince’s Trust, the Black Solicitors’ Network, and Powerful Media provide a platform for these role models. They show that there are several role models in our midst. Their stories are real and authentic.
There is a problem when people don’t see those role models and know that there are people just like them who wish to achieve and are achieving. This could contribute to a perception that attainment is not possible and for them to question why one should try to achieve. In sports, there are several examples of racially diverse role models, but when it comes to the professions, not much is heard about diversity across the board. Mentoring is also important in that there is direct guidance.
There are still restrictions on getting people into the talent pipeline early. I really think that restrictions on the need to have training contracts and pupillage before one can qualify to become solicitor or barrister respectively should be removed. These restrictions were removed in Jamaica in the 1970s, because only people of privilege got those opportunities. The question then becomes, how one regulates people who do not have training contracts and pupillage. Lessons can be learned from successes in other countries such as the US where these restrictions do not exist.
As for affirmative action and mechanisms to fill quotas, I do not believe in one being mandated to choose someone for a role solely because of their identity. Such a requirement doesn’t do much for diversity and may in fact be detrimental to the cause. By appointing someone with a wholly inappropriate skillset, they are likely to fail at the job and as a likely consequence, perpetuate stereotypes and prejudices. Embracing diversity is simply about embracing humanity – recognising that talent comes in different forms and from different people. People have diff erent talents, experiences and have overcome different barriers to get to where they are. They bring these multiplicity of characteristics when they apply for a job and as such it’s important to bear all these issues in mind. However, race or whatever the characteristic is should not be the only factor to the exclusionof others on which a decision is made.
Diversity can be inherent within an organisation’s DNA. For this to happen and to make real progress, the impetus needs to come from the top. Meaningful engagement with the beauty of diversity can’t simply be a tick-the-box exercise. Leaders need genuinely to encourage and facilitate it. We need to strive for genuine engagement that treats, values and encourages people as individuals with diverse talents, not as stereotypes.
There is a perception in legal circles in the City that to get a job one needs an Oxbridge/red-brick background or well-to-do parents. This is somewhat true when one considers the partnerships within firms.
There need to be success stories that are not based on this paradigm. Further, it’s easier to talk about diversity at the entry level, but when one looks at the partner and senior management levels, they’re not diverse.
Business plays a significant role in leading society forward and in advancing the idea that we are all people and individuals, who have different experiences and talents who can contribute to the greater benefit of the organisation and to wider society. We’re not quite the Star Trek generation yet with infinite diversity in infinite combinations! We have come a long way, but we have a long way to go.
GC: How important have role models been for you in your career?
Lesley Wan (LW): Role models are very important to have in your life to help you progress and develop, both personally and professionally. They provide a baseline from which you can observe their traits and characteristics, and decide which of those traits and characteristics you may want to embed and adapt to suit your needs and personality. It’s like a form of informal mentoring without necessarily being mentored, and you get to pick and choose what you want to take away with you.
Without role models it can be difficult to know what to aim for in your career – the saying ‘you cannot be what you cannot see’ is important here as strong role models provide guidance and inspiration, as well as an indication of what can be possible with hard work and drive.
It’s important to inspire and motivate all colleagues throughout the organisation and encourage them to progress their careers and continue to learn and grow professionally as well as personally – having diverse role models can really help to achieve this.
GC: Why it is imperative for businesses to truly embrace diversity?
LW: We need to reflect society in the UK, which is becoming increasingly diverse, and we need to be flexible to respond to the changing needs of our clients. Business leaders should always offer their clients a first class service and it can really help if they showcase people that clients can feel comfortable with and relate to, and therefore want to do business with. Allowing different values, experiences and perspectives of colleagues to be shared and accepted internally and form part of the fabric of company culture can give businesses the competitive edge over competitors and a happier workforce. To be a successful business leader, you must get the buy-in and the respect of your wider team and, in part, business leaders should ensure that they take an inclusive approach to the make-up of their team. However, any appointments must be based on merit and if diverse colleagues are not making it through the ranks, then business leaders should reflect on why this is happening and provide training to upskill those colleagues so that they can progress on an equal footing.
In the City, large corporate organisations are demonstrating that they do value diversity and inclusion, with many firms now asking recruiters to provide a good mix of diverse candidates for interview each time. We take pride in being an organisation that champions diversity and inclusion and our expectation is that our suppliers will do the same and not just pay lip service to what is a hugely important issue.
GC: Your ‘Through the Looking Glass’ initiative has been very successful in promoting social mobility in the City. How did it come about?
LW: Our chief economist for Lloyds Commercial Bank, Professor Trevor Williams, and I, observed that there was a lack of diversity in the City. We felt that we had a responsibility as senior bankers to take positive action to help address this issue, and it seemed logical to us both that we needed to target talented young people from less privileged backgrounds in the first instance and help them see what they could achieve with their lives if they had the opportunity to experience City professions and City life. We wanted to tackle the issue from the ground up and educate our young people about potential opportunities. The programme has been incredibly successful and is currently held in London, Manchester and Edinburgh, with some fantastic law firms and corporate organisations supporting us. Most of the committee comprises lawyers from all over the City who have previously worked for me on secondment and were inspired to continue to support this initiative on a voluntary basis. We are launching in Leeds later this year.
GC: Can you talk me through the practical steps you undertook in taking Through the Looking Glass from an idea to an actuality?
LW: In a nutshell:
GC: What were the biggest learning points or challenges you came across in undertaking this?
LW: The biggest challenge was having to learn what you don’t know, and usually this only happens as you go along. It’s not always obvious what you need to look out for, particularly when dealing with minors. The most important thing was to be flexible, keep an open mind and be ready for any surprises – and to be able to deal with any issues quickly and in a pragmatic way.
GC: Do you have any advice for people looking to do more with diversity and inclusion?
LW: It is daunting taking on the task of creating a programme or developing an idea but take it one step at a time, allow yourself breathing space for your idea to embed and develop. You will find that you may keep changing your mind about next steps and retract certain ideas in some cases but that is part of the joy of the learning experience in bringing a project like this to life.
GC: What do you think is the biggest diversity and inclusion challenges that businesses and the legal profession face?
LW: The legal profession still has a long way to go in progressing female lawyers to partnership – statistics are improving but not by very much. Firm culture, working practices and unconscious bias continue to have an impact in this area.
However, I think that women in private practice generally need to take greater ownership for their career progression and be proactive. Women still tend to hesitate before putting themselves forward for promotion and almost talk themselves out of progressing by analysing whether they have the right skillset to undertake the role (if they can’t fulfil 100% of the criteria, many decline to continue with the process); or considering that they may want to get married or start a family soon so don’t think it’s the right time to make any changes. Another issue for female lawyers is having the confidence to be able to negotiate effectively with the boss and talk about that pay rise or bonus that is so richly deserved! Men are better equipped to ‘talk the talk’, as they have been conditioned by social norms. Women’s networks are really important initiatives as they can provide support to female lawyers and encourage them to progress, help with the partnership track, assist with networking and provide role models.
Firm culture and social norms are also a hindrance for male lawyers who are expected to continue to do the long hours while their wives undertake all the childcare – notwithstanding that they may be married to a female lawyer in another law firm. If male lawyers are not encouraged to share the childcare and to take time out of their careers to help bring up their children and enable their wives to return to work, this is another barrier for women progressing in the law.
We do, however, see positive signs from certain law firms making great strides in supporting D&I. Food for thought: how many LGBT, female, ethnic minorities or lawyers with disabilities are actually making it through to law firm partnership or senior leadership positions in business?
We are making progress, which is heartening, but there is still a long way to go.